Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Saxxon]

[Bran34]

Lots of Words

Ok, let me make this one simple thing clear to you real quick. This process. The reason we, the people who will play the game later are here? It's to give feedback. We are here to whine if we see something we don't like. That's our job.
Whining about what we think is wrong helps the devs make more informed decisions on what their community wants. That's the whole reason we are involved in the "Development process" that we "have no business whining about".

I believe, sir, that you are the one that doesn't understand the differences between the closed development process of yesteryear and the open development processes that more and more games are embracing today.


Further, I'd still like to push my idea of combining LiF:YO and LiF:MMO into one game and charging server rental fees for YO.

[TruePain]

TBH theres no real point in arguing about whether we think this is a good thing or bad thing, the only real way of knowing is to monitor the performance and player base once the game is started. Which leads me to my next thing.

Not saying that this is my opinion, but i have heard many people's confidence in this game begin to lower drastically. Is it because of LIF:YO? I dont know, but for whatever reason, many previously excited donators and testers have become skeptical of this games success rate. Hopefully there is something that can be done to reasure them again.

[Hodo]

TBH theres no real point in arguing about whether we think this is a good thing or bad thing, the only real way of knowing is to monitor the performance and player base once the game is started. Which leads me to my next thing.

Not saying that this is my opinion, but i have heard many people's confidence in this game begin to lower drastically. Is it because of LIF:YO? I dont know, but for whatever reason, many previously excited donators and testers have become skeptical of this games success rate. Hopefully there is something that can be done to reasure them again.

You are dead on correct with your statement.

We have a saying in the automotive world, "Talk with your wallet."

If you don't like something, don't buy it.

[En_Dotter]

I am truly sorry.... I have read this over and over again, trying desperately to find something positive to say back at you - or even sympathize with you... But I truly failed greatly...
And this rant by myself will be addressed to you and the other haters/whiners out there. I will try my best to keep it calm...

What I am left with is that you clearly do not know how game development works, how crowd funding works, or how donating works.

Not even do you know what to expect with a game still as early in development as this game is - even after 3 years of development... And what still being in development really means.

And the reason is that earlier - just a few years ago, you would not even be a part of this process - as no game developer would include its community in such great aspect OPENLY as we experience today.

And this also gives the gamer/donator/community member a false feeling of the game being allot more further in development than it is - and also demands that the gamer/donator/community member knows more about game development than the normal guy in the street, to even be able to grasp what is going on, and what can be expected by a Dev team.

What you do as a donor is to show you believe in a CONCEPT, and wish to help out to see that concept grow into something more.
But a concept is only that... a rather rough frame to work from to develop something more solid. And the concept WILL change over time... even if the funding is solid from the beginning.
But it will have to change even more if the funding fails in some sort. Even if the end result is the original idea - just with other aspects and ways to get there.

The whole indie concept grew out from people wanting to make the games the big companies did not dare to make - as they often were - and often still are - meant for a niche crowd, that are so specific in their interest in a game, it would most likely not be able to create large box office amounts of cash.
And this is also why so many of them fail...

And this still stands today - even though the indie companies now have allot more going for them, and that the communities really have shown their support in such development teams who dare to tread, still somewhat, uncharted territory.

It has now almost become the NORM that the indie companies/teams create what is really the good games - the immerse ones. The big companies more rely on creating great game engines and a game built on it, but rely on community help, dedicated - freeworking - coders, story writers, 3D artists and animators to really take their product to new heights. And it works!

So do not for one second come and think people are committing a fraud or luring you to pay money for something you will not get here... As you are still getting what you wished for - but you are getting more for it. And everything is still safe and sound within the banner of being a CONCEPT!

It is first when the game is ready for release it seizes to be a concept... then it is a done product.

If you - and this is referring to ANY of the ones that still whine about changes at this point of development with ANY game in development... If you do not grasp this simple concept of what the course of a game in development is, and how crowd funding and donating works - you should NEVER ever again commit yourself to ANY game in development, Early Access, or Beta testing... Cause you have absolutely no place, or the ability to comprehend what is going on at all...

You should then wait til the game is finished - and give your verdict on ONE SOLE thing... what you think of the final PRODUCT!

Sorry for being so blunt... but now this whining is actually starting to piss me off - just a little tad...

First of all i do know how development work. As a part of a big mod project for one of the games i pretty well know how hard it is to be a developer. You might say "that aint a real game... you are just modding.. pfft..." Well this mod is a huge project and has a team of a lot of ppl with certain "jobs".

When ppl comment on the mod i skip all the comments saying "wow this is cool" or "MY GOD WHAT AN AMAZING MOD" and similar. As much as i like to see good comments on the mod im developing (again with a team) i like to see "bad" comments more. Also know and critiques. Some of those are obvious because the person that makes the critique explains it in vivid detail. Others make comments that are not so clear and there are 2 types of those. One is "Your mod sucks" and the other one is "This feature of your mod sucks". For the 1st example there is no way to figure out if anything is wrong with that mod or is it just that that person doesnt like it. But, if someone says that some feature sucks (and doesnt say why), that makes me think. And that is the most valuable information. Why? Because i have to look at that feature in multitude of bad ways i didnt even try before, thus potentially changing/fixing/improving that feature.

As u mentioned concept i gotta say something about that. I did believe in concept and i still do, but im not at all happy with the things going on. Concept is something that can change, but slightly. If u change it a lot then that concept doesnt exist.
For this game my view of concept is the following (in no particular order): open world, craftsmenship (terraforming, building, and so on...), large scale battles, small scale battles, duels?, trade, banditry, diplomacy (which is not gonna be bound (much) by some game rules), MMO. Maybe i skipped some and i apologize if i did. Thats how i see this game. If you remove and/or change any of those you are not getting LiF, you are getting somethign else. Remove large scale battles (sieges for example) and its bullshit (in my eyes). Remove banditry and again its not the same game. Remove MMO (LiF:Yo) and its not the same game.
So concept is the thing that can change during the process but it can change slightly. Imaginary example: "Sorry guys, we know we promised sieges will have max of 1000 players involved, but our servers/engine cant handle that much, so we are lowering it to 500." This is the change of concept but not that severe.

Now about the choice indie devs do what they do. Why they do it? I dont care, because its their own choice, no matter if its gonna be a success or a failure. How much money do they make? I dont care. Its their business not mine. I dont even get the point in comparing companies and justifying their success/failure here. What does that have to do with my post?
Simple - Their job, their problem.
Should i start comparing for example McDonadls and some newly opened burger restaurant and try to justify their choice of food and/or service? How can that do any good?

You, my friend, are using the argumentum verbiosum here to derail the discussion. Seems some of the ppl have taken your bait. I am sure you wanted to express your fondness of this project, but so did i. You defended them, while i attacked them. We have the same goal - for this game to succed. (correct me if im wrong)

Since i want to contribute to this game however i can (at this moment only by posting here and spreading the word) i give my point of view on the changes. Like it or not, but im disappointed and i want LiF to become something we can all play and enjoy it as much as possible.

[Siegbert]

Remove large scale battles (sieges for example) and its bullshit (in my eyes). Remove banditry and again its not the same game. Remove MMO (LiF:Yo) and its not the same game

Only, it's not being removed. YO is but an extra. The MMO is still the goal.

[Wigster600]

I don't see why people are acting like. "ER MAH GERD I SPURTN MAH MUNEH ON DIS AND NAO IZ NOT MAKEHN I WUNT REFUNDEZ!"

It's not over, it's still in developement, even if it might take abit longer, it's in a more stable position with this.

[Bobik]

Remove large scale battles (sieges for example) and its bullshit (in my eyes). Remove banditry and again its not the same game. Remove MMO (LiF:Yo) and its not the same game

Only, it's not being removed. YO is but an extra. The MMO is still the goal.

this.
LiF MMO concept is not changed and will not change significantly until I'm leading that project. And I hope it will be for a long time
Only difference is that it MIGHT be implemented later, then we've planned.
LiF:YO is another game. In my opinion it is how sandbox nonMMOs should look like. Your own sandbox in your backyard, where you can invite your friends and build castles, fight wars and so on. It is not one huge public beach with a sand, where some passing by punk can crush your castle simply for fun and you need to defend your piece of creativity with your fists daily and nightly.

Personally I like Sandbox MMO concept more, I've been raised by such type of games - UO, SB, DF, EVE. But I also understand and like idea of private sandbox where your creativity is not in danger of gameplay politics and diplomacy and you can play it simply for fun, to make some screenshots and vids of astonishing castles/mazes/cities/landscapes that you had created in that sandbox.

So instead of being a dog in the manger, let's be positive to that new opportunity for other players to experience LiF sandboxiness in that way, because otherwise they would not even dare to venture into Full Loot Free PvP sandbox MMORPG.

[Bran34]

I just hope this doesn't take away players from the MMO. You're right, though, bobik.

However, I'd still like to suggest charging server rentals for YO instead of distributing the server files, and making YO itself either included in MMO or F2P.

[Hugolin]

wow what a let down, i was thinking about buying pre order or something, but i already have rust to play on private servers, sad.

[Wigster600]

wow what a let down, i was thinking about buying pre order or something, but i already have rust to play on private servers, sad.

Not sure if not read a few posts above him... or just taking the piss....

[Arrakis]

wow what a let down, i was thinking about buying pre order or something, but i already have rust to play on private servers, sad.

Not sure if not read a few posts above him... or just taking the piss....

[Destlocke]

This is a terrible idea overall. The big selling points of this game is the open world, and that it's actually MASSIVE. More and more games are leaning towards small servers and INSTANCES, which I have no interest in.

LIF: YO is basically an instance. LIF is a world, give it time to be realized as one. This might give you guys a short-sighted shot to the arm money-wise to make you feel better today, but at the cost of a long term cure most certainly.

And telling people the MMO is still coming is not reassuring. Trying to make an MMO is very difficult as you well know; trying to make 2 at the same time is just silly.

Most people will view this as "another one bites the dust.."

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Added » 20 May 2014, 14:42

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this.
LiF MMO concept is not changed and will not change significantly until I'm leading that project. And I hope it will be for a long time
Only difference is that it MIGHT be implemented later, then we've planned.

Time IS change in the games industry, especially one that is so starved of quality MMOs at this point. We need a game like LiF as soon as it can be made, not "some time later" after another project that we most certainly aren't in need of. (small scale, small server, etc)

[Perpetualgamer]

Time IS change in the games industry, especially one that is so starved of quality MMOs at this point. We need a game like LiF as soon as it can be made, not "some time later" after another project that we most certainly aren't in need of. (small scale, small server, etc)

Time != Change, that is a very bad argument to make and is surrounded by hyperbole. If you want quality then go play Wurm Online temporarily, this game is basically that but with an upgrade in the graphics department(a much needed upgrade for sure). But to say that there is no Quality MMO's at this point is a huge amount of hyperbole.

That being said Rust made me aware that LiF:YO will be filling a hole, that needs filling. A robust survival medevil game that I can play with my close friends without getting harassed by the big guilds. That being said I will also be playing LiF: MMO albeit alone, because my friends will never get into it like I will.

I wonder how many man hours Bobik has spent reading the complains and hyperbole in this forum that could have been spent progressing the game forward. He isn't going to change his decision, which means that any arguments we have on the subject will basically just be stuff he has to read and respond. It's a waste of the poor mans time.

[Beeskee]

BTW devs if you're having trouble with zoning, the source for OpenSim is available. Can't remember if I posted this or not. It doesn't hurt to take a peak, may give you some insight by seeing how they handle things.

I can't think of any other open source MMOs with zoning, if anyone else can, feel free to post your suggestions.

[Hodo]

Time IS change in the games industry, especially one that is so starved of quality MMOs at this point. We need a game like LiF as soon as it can be made, not "some time later" after another project that we most certainly aren't in need of. (small scale, small server, etc)

Time != Change, that is a very bad argument to make and is surrounded by hyperbole. If you want quality then go play Wurm Online temporarily, this game is basically that but with an upgrade in the graphics department(a much needed upgrade for sure). But to say that there is no Quality MMO's at this point is a huge amount of hyperbole.

That being said Rust made me aware that LiF:YO will be filling a hole, that needs filling. A robust survival medevil game that I can play with my close friends without getting harassed by the big guilds. That being said I will also be playing LiF: MMO albeit alone, because my friends will never get into it like I will.

I wonder how many man hours Bobik has spent reading the complains and hyperbole in this forum that could have been spent progressing the game forward. He isn't going to change his decision, which means that any arguments we have on the subject will basically just be stuff he has to read and respond. It's a waste of the poor mans time.

This game will not be like Wurm Online, that grind is stupid.

[Unbeaten]

I agree, this is DFUW all over again. The old bait and switch technique to get green lit and gather support. THEN we change the concept in a whole 180 degree fashion into some dumb system most wont even care to learn. Your asking us to work harder than the dev's obviously are in their thinktank this morning.

[Kossako]

I agree, this is DFUW all over again. The old bait and switch technique to get green lit and gather support. THEN we change the concept in a whole 180 degree fashion into some dumb system most wont even care to learn. Your asking us to work harder than the dev's obviously are in their thinktank this morning.

Yeah... I though same. I already heard "this is only side project" and "won't affect main game development at all" from Aventurine. Partially lost interest but waiting to see how it goes.

[Flesh]

I agree, this is DFUW all over again. The old bait and switch technique to get green lit and gather support. THEN we change the concept in a whole 180 degree fashion into some dumb system most wont even care to learn. Your asking us to work harder than the dev's obviously are in their thinktank this morning.

Yeah... I though same. I already heard "this is only side project" and "won't affect main game development at all" from Aventurine. Partially lost interest but waiting to see how it goes.

Bobik have clearly said that LiF YO will take time from the MMO development. No attempt to hide the fact. This dev-team is honest with their thoughts and work. You can't even compare them with AV on that.

That being said, if LiF YO becomes a success -> Money -> More Devs -> shorter development time on the MMO version. Maybe.

[Bobik]

Even few months or years of development is infinitely shorter then "never".

[Sturmhardt]

Are you guys not extremely constrained with your resources? Now you are developing two code branches instead of one, isn't that going to slow the development of LiF down a lot?

[Jezbelle]

Are you guys not extremely constrained with your resources? Now you are developing two code branches instead of one, isn't that going to slow the development of LiF down a lot?

Kidney demand has skyrocketed recently

[SirWinston]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, I don't think it is a bad idea, as it will help grow a playerbase and a real community around the game. Especially on STEAM which can really make your game a success without huge advertisement budget. (Think Day Z)

On most generalist websites I read, the idea was pretty well received on the forums and everyone seemed hyped to get a "first glimpse" of the game on private servers.

When the MMO eventually hits with all the features that were promised (maybe even more if LiF:YO is a success?), I think the majority will move on to the official server and only keep a private server for testing purposes. Especially if the game keeps its "pay once, play forever" business model.

People are waiting for a true sandbox PvP game, is LiF is launched at the right time it might fill that niche.

[Flannery]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, I don't think it is a bad idea, as it will help grow a playerbase and a real community around the game. Especially on STEAM which can really make your game a success without huge advertisement budget. (Think Day Z)

On most generalist websites I read, the idea was pretty well received on the forums and everyone seemed hyped to get a "first glimpse" of the game on private servers.

When the MMO eventually hits with all the features that were promised (maybe even more if LiF:YO is a success?), I think the majority will move on to the official server and only keep a private server for testing purposes. Especially if the game keeps its "pay once, play forever" business model.

People are waiting for a true sandbox PvP game, is LiF is launched at the right time it might fill that niche.

+ 1 this!

[Svarog]

This all made me confused , do we buy LiF:YO when it comes to steam and only pay later to transfer character to LiF:MMO servers? There is no need to buy another LiF:MMO ?

[Arrakis]

LiF:YO and LiF:MMO are two different games, you don't transfer character from LiF:YO as each and every server have it's own database.

[Svarog]

Aha ok , I get it now , so LiF:YO will be the first game released on steam and LiF:MMO will come later , right?

[Arrakis]

Yes, once LiF:YO is released devs will concentrate on MMO.

[Hodo]

Yes, once LiF:YO is released devs will concentrate on MMO.

Going to sound like a prick here but....

When LiF:YO releases on Steam it should be interesting.

[Svarog]

Been awhile since there was news on whats going on..