Life is Feudal Official Forum

[SaresITA89]

Hi all, I played Xsyon its launch.

And people like me who played it, they know perfectly well that with a system where the trees are felled in the early days there will be a full server deforestation.

I want to know, how long is reborn a tree and if it is born in the same spot or randomly around the map, or close to other trees.

I want to know the same thing on the materials that we find in the ground with terraforming. The world can be destroyed completely, I wanted to know if there is a way to restore the world as it was prescribed.

In Xsyon, for example, if the terraforming is not done near your home, it starts to come back as it was in the beginning.



sorry for my english

[Bobik]

Yes, full deforestation is possible. And if you had not been cautious and deforested everything around your base - you will have hard days in getting logs for further building. So make a tree farm for yourself, replant chopped down trees and everything would be nice.

As about natural growth. Every grown up tree have a certain chance to spawn a sapling in a certain radius (roughly 15 meters) once a real life day. So dense forests might grow quite good. But, if there is small amount of trees nearby or no trees - there will be no natural growth.

As about natural resources - they DO NOT respawn. At all. So yes, ores rocks, marble, slate, granite can be totally depleted. And that is a part of the game. But on the other side - those resources are quite scarce in our game.

It is like in real life, humanity is using iron ore to smelt metals for like 3000 years and it still still not depleted, same goes to our case. I just suggest not to worry about that

[SaresITA89]

Yeah! good job!!!


The only thing missing to make it my favorite game is a ranged combat with the possibility of poison arrows through alchemy potions

I know that it is not the priority, but I hope in a expansion.


EDIT2:
Hey, and as for the leveling of the ground? I know it would be nice to make the eternal change with terraforming, but in a game is also very dangerous. There we can find in a world destroyed

[Telakh]

It is all on the back of a giant turtle you can't destroy it.

[Cian]

Bobik,
Will certain geographic areas be more pre-disposed to certain resources over others?

For example, will a mountain but more likely to have more frequent deposits of iron and marble vs perhaps a town build next to a lake where they created a mine by digging straight down into the ground?

Would sombody be able to create a successful industrial town in the mountains by virtue of easier access and larger amounts of iron or marble?

Or is the distribution random?

[Mighty_Chicken]

Going off of Cian would certain areas also be better for farming? With better soil or whatever? I'm pretty sure i heard something about that in the live stream but not sure.

[SaresITA89]

Would sombody be able to create a successful industrial town in the mountains by virtue of easier access and larger amounts of iron or marble?

power dwarven!!!

[Bobik]

Bobik,
Will certain geographic areas be more pre-disposed to certain resources over others?

For example, will a mountain but more likely to have more frequent deposits of iron and marble vs perhaps a town build next to a lake where they created a mine by digging straight down into the ground?

Would sombody be able to create a successful industrial town in the mountains by virtue of easier access and larger amounts of iron or marble?

Or is the distribution random?

So far I can say about following distribution:
Ores are only inside rocky (mountain) substances. So if there is a greenland without any sights of mountains - no matter how much you will dig, you won't find ore.
Marble, granite and slate also *surprize* distributed in mountains.
Different types of trees are distributed with according climate areas.
Steppe soils are less fertile then normal (greenland) soils, so it is kinda of resource distribution too. And do not underestimate need of good high quality food flow Not only players will need it, but animals in stables and breeding pens too.

You won't be able to build a WHOLE working city underground, but settling on a mountain side to establish a fast production workflow is certainly a good idea. But you might gonna have troubles with food, since there will be only rock and forest around you.

[Demonic]

So far I can say about following distribution:
Ores are only inside rocky (mountain) substances. So if there is a greenland without any sights of mountains - no matter how much you will dig, you won't find ore.
Marble, granite and slate also *surprize* distributed in mountains.
Different types of trees are distributed with according climate areas.
Steppe soils are less fertile then normal (greenland) soils, so it is kinda of resource distribution too. And do not underestimate need of good high quality food flow Not only players will need it, but animals in stables and breeding pens too.

You won't be able to build a WHOLE working city underground, but settling on a mountain side to establish a fast production workflow is certainly a good idea. But you might gonna have troubles with food, since there will be only rock and forest around you.

Damn... that sounds like a solid foundations for specialized cities and good trade I like that!

[Dailato]

Indeed, this is most useful information for planning the layout and location of the Holy City. Something to contemplate.

Yours truly -The Pope

[Telakh]

Hey! We have claimed the Eyjafjallajokull already!

[theinternetman]

Natural resources not respawning is a game breaking issue and should not be included in the final release. Anyone who has extensive sandbox MMO experience would agree. This game may be your "special snowflake" MMO bobik but that doesn't mean you should make idiotic development choices such as that one. Maybe if you want 10 people to play your game and it to be completely commercially unsuccessful that's a good idea. Players will completely ravage the world and it will negatively impact everyone. People come to games to escape real life, not simulate the annoying aspects of it. In before someone from the Darkfail crew uses hyperbole to call me a casual gamer, etc.

Yeah I have a job, that's why I actually have money and can afford to spend it on a game instead of the poopsockers who will corner all the resources in the game by playing 24/7 in their parents basement or using disability/social security checks.

Who has time to worry about video game resources being permanently depleted that works 40-50 hours a week?

Why is it every sandbox game developer thinks most people have 20-30 hours a week to dedicate to their game?

...and people wonder why Sandbox MMOs aren't popular.

[Telakh]

Well, I have sligthly more than extensive MMO and sandbox MMO experience and I can’t really agree with you. So your first statement is not so right or I am not “anyone”.
As for the second - sandboxes are not quite popular because people have to have some brains in order to play them. That is why so few office monkeys who has work and money to pay for their “escape from reality” are able to play full loot system, and even less are interested in permadeath. =)
Depleted resources is the last thing one should worry about if he is capable to do some maths but that is not compulsive nowadays if one can afford to buy a gayphone. You can try to count, how many years will it take for the molerats to dig out about 50 cubic kilometers of rocks, considering that any mineshafts are collapsing, cliffs are sloping, trees are growing and you have to drop somewhere all the rocks you dig out.
Or do you happen to think that full plate mail and jewelry is a cheap stuff, as it was in diablo?

It is kind of silly to do the critics and make no counter-propositions. “This is bad, this is not smart at all and this is silly. You guys are not making a good game”. What do you call a sandbox if you want to have infinite resources?

Of course, online world must have restrictions, and when one sees that there are none – he panics and expect griefers and nerds to spoil his fun. He shouldn’t play anything more sandboxed than WoW then.
The fact that anyone can knock you down, strip your body, rape it, cut to pieces, cook them, then make a сandlehold of your scull, use bones for crossguard decoration or do it all in a different sequence as soon as you pull out your head out of the gates will scare much more people from the game then any resources-kind propblems probably can.

Anyway, here are always instruments to replenish the resource pool. Making an earthquake for example.
Best regards!

[Thokan]

Natural resources not respawning is a game breaking issue and should not be included in the final release. Anyone who has extensive sandbox MMO experience would agree. This game may be your "special snowflake" MMO bobik but that doesn't mean you should make idiotic development choices such as that one. Maybe if you want 10 people to play your game and it to be completely commercially unsuccessful that's a good idea. Players will completely ravage the world and it will negatively impact everyone. People come to games to escape real life, not simulate the annoying aspects of it. In before someone from the Darkfail crew uses hyperbole to call me a casual gamer, etc.

Yeah I have a job, that's why I actually have money and can afford to spend it on a game instead of the poopsockers who will corner all the resources in the game by playing 24/7 in their parents basement or using disability/social security checks.

Who has time to worry about video game resources being permanently depleted that works 40-50 hours a week?

Why is it every sandbox game developer thinks most people have 20-30 hours a week to dedicate to their game?

...and people wonder why Sandbox MMOs aren't popular.

Maintaining a mining operation will likely take a well-equipped guild, thus there is a limitation to whom can strip precious resources.

There is also a limitation of prospecting. The resource nodes are not made easily accessed.

Lastly there is the quantity. Basically what Bobik has said is that they wont replenish the precious resources, but there is no need to worry as the quantity is vast to begin with. I've seen him often refer to the real life historical mining of iron and such.

So think instead that the resources are depleteable, not that they will be. That they will always be there somewhere, but there won't be any arrows on your screen finding them.

[Bobik]

A rough estimate calculations:
If 5000 players will spend 40 minutes each day mining for iron ore with top quality tools with 100 Mining skill, with someone helping them to move all that ore (they will be only mining) and with some reasons of unlimited stamina, then...

...it will take 10,876 real life days (almost 30 years) to completely mine out all the iron ore in our world.

Well, you understand that such "ideal" mining will be almost impossible in our game, and real time you will spend to mine out that 40 "ideal" minutes might be up to 3-4 hours.

Also, do not forget that you can recycle metal containing items back into ingots/

[Arrakis]

A rough estimate calculations:
If 5000 players will spend 40 minutes each day mining for iron ore with top quality tools with 100 Mining skill, with someone helping them to move all that ore (they will be only mining) and with some reasons of unlimited stamina, then...

...it will take 10,876 real life days (almost 30 years) to completely mine out all the iron ore in our world.

Well, you understand that such "ideal" mining will be almost impossible in our game, and real time you will spend to mine out that 40 "ideal" minutes might be up to 3-4 hours.

Also, do not forget that you can recycle metal containing items back into ingots/

That is really nice, I couldn't even imagine that it will be so much of that ore in the ground.

Anyway, will some of the material (metal) be lost during recycling? Or we will receive excact ammount of metal that was used to create an item?

[Bobik]

Ofc recycling will result in a quite significant lose of metal.

[Cian]

Why is it every sandbox game developer thinks most people have 20-30 hours a week to dedicate to their game?

...and people wonder why Sandbox MMOs aren't popular.

Man I feel you but unfortunately I'm going to have to point out that Sandbox MMO's by nature are not "casual games".

If you want a casual game you should go play Candy Crush, Seven Days to Die, or some single player game.

True Sandbox games will always reward the efforts of those who put in the most time. This is an inescapable fact of Sandbox worlds and the fact that players impact every aspect of said world.

Meridian 59, Ultima Online, Everquest, 10 Six, DAOC, Pirates of the Burning Sea, City of Heroes, et ALL. Most MMO's reward those who put in the most time.

The only difference is in a sandbox, somebody can come along and knock your castle down around you.



-------------------------

As to the resource discussion. I'm not willing to put forth and argument one way or another until Alpha/Beta. Resource usage will get adjusted as Bobik gets a chance to observe the practical effect of a 50 man village strip mining a mountain over the course of a few weeks. Only then will he make adjustments as resources are wiped out too quickly or not quickly enough.

The only observation I will offer is this. If a village is forced to move once a month to find new minerals, then they likely deplete too quickly.

[Dailato]

As to the resource discussion. I'm not willing to put forth and argument one way or another until Alpha/Beta. Resource usage will get adjusted as Bobik gets a chance to observe the practical effect of a 50 man village strip mining a mountain over the course of a few weeks. Only then will he make adjustments as resources are wiped out too quickly or not quickly enough.

The only observation I will offer is this. If a village is forced to move once a month to find new minerals, then they likely deplete too quickly.

I would tend to agree with you on the time-frame of moving a village. However!
This does not mean that after a month it will be just as easy to mine new minerals as it was before then. Having the village located on a small, singular node of iron ore may well mean it is limited to 1 month before it is depleted.
However if they are in a rocky, mountainous area, they may well find more by digging deeper and wider for a few days, or starting a new mine shaft on the other side of the valley, for example.
In other words, it may be optimal to move the village once a month, but it should not be required.

And yes, in general a sandbox rewards people that are constantly online more, as there is always something you can do (no dungeon timers, no cooldowns on some kind of energy or stamina) and having people in different timezones to keep up the pace 24/7 is a major advantage too.

That being said, organization and teamwork is far more valuable in a sandbox than time available, as logistics and safety take precedence over quantity of goods created, and similar for warfare.

You can't beat massive odds, but you can certainly mitigate them substantially.

Yours truly -The Pope

[Thokan]

As to the resource discussion. I'm not willing to put forth and argument one way or another until Alpha/Beta. Resource usage will get adjusted as Bobik gets a chance to observe the practical effect of a 50 man village strip mining a mountain over the course of a few weeks. Only then will he make adjustments as resources are wiped out too quickly or not quickly enough.

The only observation I will offer is this. If a village is forced to move once a month to find new minerals, then they likely deplete too quickly.

I would tend to agree with you on the time-frame of moving a village. However!
This does not mean that after a month it will be just as easy to mine new minerals as it was before then. Having the village located on a small, singular node of iron ore may well mean it is limited to 1 month before it is depleted.
However if they are in a rocky, mountainous area, they may well find more by digging deeper and wider for a few days, or starting a new mine shaft on the other side of the valley, for example.
In other words, it may be optimal to move the village once a month, but it should not be required.

And yes, in general a sandbox rewards people that are constantly online more, as there is always something you can do (no dungeon timers, no cooldowns on some kind of energy or stamina) and having people in different timezones to keep up the pace 24/7 is a major advantage too.

That being said, organization and teamwork is far more valuable in a sandbox than time available, as logistics and safety take precedence over quantity of goods created, and similar for warfare.

You can't beat massive odds, but you can certainly mitigate them substantially.

Yours truly -The Pope

That a village would have to move from a mineral deposit is quite a brave assumption. That is likely never going to happen.

More like destroyed in conquest.

[Proximo]

Move a village? not likely. If you set up by a small hill that has low amounts you could always trade the dwarves of erebor for there riches.

[Arrakis]

Well moving a village is a valid option, but resource and time consuming, not to mention the danger.

[Thokan]

Well moving a village is a valid option, but resource and time consuming, not to mention the danger.

Not really.

We do not know how small a village can support a mining operation, but we do know with certainty that realms can.

You cannot move a realm.

Beside, I think you are underestimating the importance of your camp. The camp is the source of all your work, accomplishment and progress. In sense, it is more your character than your character-sheet is.

Moving from a small hermitage might be plausible, but moving a village would be like deleting your character and starting over again.

[Arrakis]

Not really.

We do not know how small a village can support a mining operation, but we do know with certainty that realms can.

You cannot move a realm.

Beside, I think you are underestimating the importance of your camp. The camp is the source of all your work, accomplishment and progress. In sense, it is more your character than your character-sheet is.

Moving from a small hermitage might be plausible, but moving a village would be like deleting your character and starting over again.

It all depends of the situation and really how big the village is, if one will be under siege for a long time and won't be able to really go too far from the village itself, people may be forced to abandon it and move to safer area, claim another land somewhere far away for their clan, possibly leaving some resources behind, but it will automaticly perish after few days as it was explained.

Everything is possible here, and everyone can lose their most precious things in a matter of days if things go really bad, I mean really, really bad. Life is Feudal, that's the life and honestly I am prepared for worst scenario, because it will not be easy to survive here.

[Sting5]

Natural resources not respawning is a game breaking issue and should not be included in the final release. Anyone who has extensive sandbox MMO experience would agree. [...]

Yeah I have a job, that's why I actually have money and can afford to spend it on a game instead of the poopsockers who will corner all the resources in the game by playing 24/7 in their parents basement or using disability/social security checks.

Who has time to worry about video game resources being permanently depleted that works 40-50 hours a week?

[...]

I'm affraid I must agree - I started worrying too after reading first comment on non-renewable resources. Then the world must be enormous! If the game becames popular, there will be everyone fighting over few lumps of coal/iron.
I'm sure though that if LiF will be with limited earth resources, then we have to either be able to dig as deep as we want to. Or the server must be restarted periodically (and that is stupid idea...).

[Arrakis]

I'm affraid I must agree - I started worrying too after reading first comment on non-renewable resources. Then the world must be enormous! If the game becames popular, there will be everyone fighting over few lumps of coal/iron.
I'm sure though that if LiF will be with limited earth resources, then we have to either be able to dig as deep as we want to. Or the server must be restarted periodically (and that is stupid idea...).

Well I don't think you have to worry about resources for now, and it's because...

A rough estimate calculations:
If 5000 players will spend 40 minutes each day mining for iron ore with top quality tools with 100 Mining skill, with someone helping them to move all that ore (they will be only mining) and with some reasons of unlimited stamina, then...

...it will take 10,876 real life days (almost 30 years) to completely mine out all the iron ore in our world.

So well, considering the fact that we will need that much time to actually deplete resources in the world I don't really think that any of us should worry about them.

[Antiblitz]

Or the server must be restarted periodically (and that is stupid idea...).

this is inevitable in any sandbox mmo, these servers will be restarted sooner then later, normally however when server restarts occur, you have this mixed flow of players coming and leaving, some coming for the new fresh start while others are leaving with their glory intact. As a developer, you dont want people to leave, you lose money that way, so restarting is a drasic measure that should be avoided if possible.

Im not sure if this was mentioned before or not, but plants, trees and water are renewable, the ores in the ground are not, they will at one time or another be dug out of specific areas more heavily then others. If they were to create something that when cave decay occurred it would have to stay untouched(or not, just incase of accidents) for a period of time, maybe 3 months(a random number i shot out, it could be anything) real time, before resources renew themselves. This skips
any sort of issues from a server restart as well as gets rid of the rants about these threads. Of course this then creates additional scripts for the server load to remember.

TL:DR, it would be a simple underground server reset of anything that has decayed into just dirt due to being mined, and the mine collapsing do to inactivity. This would occur every so many months to alleviate a need for a restart while leaving the rest of the server playable and intact.

[Proximo]

Or the server must be restarted periodically (and that is stupid idea...).

this is inevitable in any sandbox mmo, these servers will be restarted sooner then later, normally however when server restarts occur, you have this mixed flow of players coming and leaving, some coming for the new fresh start while others are leaving with their glory intact. As a developer, you dont want people to leave, you lose money that way, so restarting is a drasic measure that should be avoided if possible.

Im not sure if this was mentioned before or not, but plants, trees and water are renewable, the ores in the ground are not, they will at one time or another be dug out of specific areas more heavily then others. If they were to create something that when cave decay occurred it would have to stay untouched(or not, just incase of accidents) for a period of time, maybe 3 months(a random number i shot out, it could be anything) real time, before resources renew themselves. This skips
any sort of issues from a server restart as well as gets rid of the rants about these threads. Of course this then creates additional scripts for the server load to remember.

TL:DR, it would be a simple underground server reset of anything that has decayed into just dirt due to being mined, and the mine collapsing do to inactivity. This would occur every so many months to alleviate a need for a restart while leaving the rest of the server playable and intact.

If that was possible it would fix it but the server is supposed to be persistent. They would literally have to find the locations of where they want to reset since there will be varying levels of height and depth all across the map. Sea level is the lowest known and there are large mountains in the game so you couldn't just reset the lowest ground because someone may have built something on lower ground than a mine in a hill or mountain.

If they wipe what you take forever to build the game will die. The Terraforming is supposed to be permanent and apparently there's a shit ton of ore which is the only non-renewable resource.

[Antiblitz]

yes, thats why i meant use the decay system.

Its scripted to decay mines and caves over a time period, once decay has taken place, further decay of the now dirt filled area begins, after a period of time, like say 3 months(just a number, not what i chose specifically), the decay is done, and newly spawned minerals will have arrived. This alleviates restarting issues, and only respawns minerals in the decayed shaft parts, which was what was mined before. Anything maintained will be safe and secure. I used the term of an underground restart as just a layman term to give people an idea of what could be done.

*Decayed shafts collapse, further decay occurs resulting in mineral spawns of the old shaft

*Maintained shafts dont decay, so no worries

[Arrakis]

It's all nice, tunnels and mines decaying and collapsing after time.. But I don't really understand why would you suggest minerals respawn if there is no really chance to see them exploited in next 20-30years? What's the point?

Anyway every game server of any mmo really requires once in a while(a month or so) a few hours of maintenence, so I doubt server shut downs can be avoided.