Life is Feudal Official Forum

[Hoshiqua]

Hey !

So, I played WURM online sometime ago (if you don't know this game, I suggest you check it out, really a lot like LiF, except population is not very high nowadays) and I noticed a few major difference. The one I'm gonna talk about here, is how the skills are handled.

In Wurm online, there are NO skill lines, any skills can be upped in any order. You can do basic actions for every skills from the start, and that allow people to quickly specialise.

Now, I know what you may think,

For the crafting skills, yes, that would allow people to be a master in a lot of very sophisticated skills. Well, to prevent that, I recommand reducing the skill cap, simply.. people can master some actual tier V skills should they want to, but there still needs to be farmers, terraformers, foresters.. to provide the materials needed.

For the combat skills, do the same thing, but still make the cap higher than the crafting skills. You may think that people would then create OP builds for combat, but what I say, is that, in a game that aims to be realistic, any OP build that cannot be countered effectively and / or is not very expensive to make is simply a flaw in the game. People could try being an heavy archer with a royal plate (which is currently possible) but if it is that OP as it is, simply add a malus to aiming if you wear very heavy armor. That applies to every builds possible ! Either balance all of them, or make the "best" builds use very VERY expensive equipment (so it is only for lords, champions...).

What do you guys think ? I have even more ideas if this is taken in, but thi is the basic, rough idea.

[Wolfhelm]

I 1000% (i did not add an extra 0) endorse this idea, hell with this feature i would pay double... However i think the skillcap should remain 600.

This would make it so much more realistic, and as i said in another post, why do i need to learn to use a weapon before armor, why mine before smith. why farm before cook...

However the armor weapon balance is perfect

[KyrahAbattoir]

I'm on the fence with this, while some of the prequisites do not make complete sense, i like to think that advanced abilities require a background of other knowledge, while it's not always true, your superior should have to know your job as well as you do.

[Sebas555]

I think there is a general consensus throughout the community that this skill tree need to be reworked completly to something more like this...

life-is-balanced-t3512/

I really liked what they did on this server about the skill tree.

[Hoshiqua]

There should be no skill trees at all. That skill tree will have the exact same problems, any skilltrees will !

[Sebas555]

There should be no skill trees at all. That skill tree will have the exact same problems, any skilltrees will !

I just think that when they made it, they were dedicated to make something simple and easy to understand from a UI point of view (6 rows of 5 skills that fits just right into the UI box...) I think that game deserve something more complex and deep, a real skill tree with multiple branches that interact between them!!... and of course group up skills that are alike together (who wants to have to learn about warhorses to be able to wear a chainmail )

[Wolfhelm]

There should be no skill trees at all. That skill tree will have the exact same problems, any skilltrees will !

correct, this is why i endorse this, and all the ideas in my post..

skill-trees-pages-and-layout-recomendations-t10235/

[Swayerbro2]

In Wurm online, there are NO skill lines, any skills can be upped in any order. You can do basic actions for every skills from the start, and that allow people to quickly specialise.

I played Wurm Online for years, and there are skill lines. They are just hidden behind the scenes. You couldn't start a brand new character and begin building rafts, for example. You had to skill up basic carpentry a little with spindles, then make some more complicated carpentry items, and last boat building appeared as an option.

I will agree the skill lines were much more relaxed and made much more logical sense though.

[Hoshiqua]

Well, the "skill lines" were just "things you got to train to get the components", but if you were given all the final components at start, you could assemble them, right ? Without having trained carpentry and all ?

[Wolfhelm]

i have never played worm online, so i cant tell you what its like...

but in my opinion, if you wanted to solo, then you would need "skill lines" as you would need to level logging to cut wood, then carpantry to make the billets, and then you can level bowcraft.... does this sound about right?

[Hoshiqua]

Yes, exactly. Skill lines come by themselves as they are needed.. but sometimes they are not. And that's the case here, solo players / very small groups will have to have "skill lines" in order to provide to their own needs.. but huge groups / cities will need very specialised people to craft the finest of good that's why I think skillcap should be lowered so that can happen.

[Swayerbro2]

I see what you're saying and partially agree. Armorsmithing shouldn't have mining as a prerequisite, for example, because another player could be doing the mining for the group. Some prerequisites do make sense though, like masonry before architecture, carpentry before bowcrafting. These pairs that make sense could be considered advanced tiers of the parent skill without the full 5-tiered system they have now.

[Hoshiqua]

BUMP

What do you guys think ?

[Hoshiqua]

BUMP

[Fireraizer]

I brought up a similar arguement not so long ago considering the ranged weaponry skill tree and how most of the trees were illogical and take away some of the realism the game is trying to achieve. So yes I agree with you.

[Yohor]

I disagree to a certain extent -
it is in fact logical to learn the basics before learning the advanced skills.

But it should be possible to level down the basics after you achieved the advanced skill, and still refine the advanced skill.

(e.g. carpentry over lvl 60 can still be upgraded, but forestry can be downgraded to 0...)

despite it is realistic that a carpenter has at least some knowledge about trees, it is not necessarily specialist knowledge...

[Fireraizer]

I disagree to a certain extent -
it is in fact logical to learn the basics before learning the advanced skills.

But it should be possible to level down the basics after you achieved the advanced skill, and still refine the advanced skill.

(e.g. carpentry over lvl 60 can still be upgraded, but forestry can be downgraded to 0...)

despite it is realistic that a carpenter has at least some knowledge about trees, it is not necessarily specialist knowledge...

That's where the products will require you to be proficient in another skill before being able to produce higher level goods in another skill. The idea is to remove the tree and make it where you can start on any skill, but to be advanced in the skill or to make advanced products you need to be proficient in another skill to have the components.

[Wolfhelm]

I disagree to a certain extent -
it is in fact logical to learn the basics before learning the advanced skills.

But it should be possible to level down the basics after you achieved the advanced skill, and still refine the advanced skill.

(e.g. carpentry over lvl 60 can still be upgraded, but forestry can be downgraded to 0...)

despite it is realistic that a carpenter has at least some knowledge about trees, it is not necessarily specialist knowledge...

this would also be a good idea, so that once a checkpoint is reached, it stays forever, but keep the cap, so i cant be a farmer/logger/hunter/carpanter/smith/armorsmith/tailor,

[Hoshiqua]

Yes, carpenters do know a bit about tree, either because they NEED to (that will happen in game), or because it MAY be useful to them, so they learn it just in case. That may happen in the game too. But to saw a plank, carve handles, build furnitures, you don't need to know how to plant a tree.

Same with procuration, which is the worstly affected by the skill lines.. why do I need to be a friggin chicken farmer before making leather or bone glue ? It makes no sense !

[Yohor]

Yes, carpenters do know a bit about tree, either because they NEED to (that will happen in game), or because it MAY be useful to them, so they learn it just in case. That may happen in the game too. But to saw a plank, carve handles, build furnitures, you don't need to know how to plant a tree.

Same with procuration, which is the worstly affected by the skill lines.. why do I need to be a friggin chicken farmer before making leather or bone glue ? It makes no sense !

I see what you mean, but what is the problem with knowing how to tame an animal to unlock the procuration, and then lowering that skill back to 0 after being proficient enough with the next in line?
At least in the country where I life it is usual when learning an artisan profession to learn how the raw materials are gained.

[Hoshiqua]

That's the problem, you can downgrade the skill to 0 afterwards.

And, YES, you learn how to get materials because of reasons, but certainly not because you NEED to know in order to do your job.

[Capitaniojr]

the problem is, every skill tree have good and bad jobs that need to be done, it will hapen that everione will want to build his skils in the funiest activities, and will let the not so funy jobs, like teraforming and herbalism out of skils. whit the skils tree you are compeled to be able to do these jobs.

[Hoshiqua]

You don't understand.. if no one does those works, the few who do it will be extremly well paid or will have large rewards, which will quickly lead people to do those "boring" jobs in the hope of having more reward. Beside, if no one does those jobs, you can't skill up the more advanced lines.. to skill up carptentry, you need someone to know how to cut a tree and bring you logs. This is what my suggestion is all about ! You could do the woodcutting yourself, too, but it will cost you skillpoints and time you could do to do a better carpentry job. It works like a charm in Wurm Online (although, bad example, there's no skillcap on this game so everyone can eventually learn everything and economy is dead).

[Yohor]

That's the problem, you can downgrade the skill to 0 afterwards.

And, YES, you learn how to get materials because of reasons, but certainly not because you NEED to know in order to do your job.

I suppose you meant, you can't downgrade at the moment? I can totally support, that the prerequisites should be downgradable after having reached the benchmarks...

and, in real life, a GOOD carpenter knows a lot about trees. He will not raise them and cut them down himselves, but he knows a lot about them...

[Hoshiqua]

"Good" is not the right word.. knowing about how a tree is planted will not affect how good he does carpentry.

.. and yes, I meant "can't"

[Wolfhelm]

Well, the sense with being able to downgrade farming but keep tailoring would make sense as it shows evolution, first humans farmed plants, then animals, then made glue ect. Or first mined, then made weapons, but you should be able to downgrade...

[Hoshiqua]

No, because that will lead to people to arrive in settled communities wanting to do a particular thing having to skill the whole skill branch, even tho they should be able to do that particular thing directly because the community can provide it !

[Falcion]

3 times YES for this idea.
I do not see why would i need a chain armor to learn to fight on a horseback. Or why would i need to learn to wear scale armor to arm myself with a shield.
Also some crafting lines are a killer. I know it's good that i can mine my own ore and then smelt it but really how many miners were also smiths? How many foresters became siege engineres?


FREEEEEEDOM!

[Stianos]

I totally agree with this, the current skill lines don't add anything to the game. I think the main problem would be the armor skill lines, but if we keep the weight system I think plate is already disadvantaged enough against the faster fighters in other armor classes.

[Tbiggy]

one of the issues for me is that Tayloring is way down the skill tree. How is a militia man going to skill up in cloth armor if it requires cloth armor to be made by a taylor? And it takes forever to get enough material to make cloth in the first place. It is a shame that chain is easier to get for armor than cloth or leather armor.

I think that there needs to be prerequisites for "master" skills but not all skills need to be on a skill tree. The basic requites should cap at 30 instead of 60, knowing that certain items or features will not be achieved with the lower cap.

non skill tree skills would be laborer type of skills such as mining, construction materials, logging, and hunting/fishing for example.

Piety needs to be put with Authority group skills and out of non-combat skills.